Subj:	TRAVELLER digest 388
Date:	95-08-24 09:49:43 EDT
From:	traveller@mpgn.com
Sender:	traveller@mpgn.com
Reply-to:	traveller@mpgn.com
To:	traveller@mpgn.com (Multiple recipients of list)

			    TRAVELLER Digest 388

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Challenge 77
	by mhclark@iastate.edu
  2) RE: Challenge 77 
	by That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>
  3) Lethality and variant rules...
	by Christopher_Griffen@dmcwave.com (Christopher Griffen)
  4) Re: Ship Type Definitions
	by lhowie@lrmi.com (Les Howie)
  5) RE: Considering selling up Classic Traveller stuff
	by David Elrick <Dave.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
  6) Apologies to proper scientists
	by "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
  7) Re: Hoverboards
	by Bill Currie <BILLC@teleng1.tait.co.nz>
  8) Fusion/HEPLAR Drives
	by John Muir Macpherson <muirmac@uclink.berkeley.edu>
  9) HEPlaR drive plumes
	by "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
 10) RE: Selling Up
	by David Elrick <Dave.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
 11) rof.txt
	by Joni M Virolainen <jonimv@evitech.fi>
 12) M41A
	by Joni M Virolainen <jonimv@evitech.fi>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 09:43:33 CDT
From: mhclark@iastate.edu
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Challenge 77
Message-ID: <9508231443.AA11813@isum1.iastate.edu>

Well, I can't wait until I see my copy of Challenge 77.  As a fairly 
hostile critic of Sneeks & Geeks, I'm glad to know that the folks at GDW 
are at least taking notice of our complaints.  While I am by no means 
hostile to everything that GDW is putting out lately (I still buy it and 
read it, after all, and I do use most of it), I do think that it is 
important that they respond to the market and put out material that 
gamers are willing to buy.  When one compares Traveller output to the 
quantity delivered by other companies, it's easy to get frustrated.  
However, if the stuff was worth waiting for, I wouldn't mind so much.  
The poor quality of some of the recent TNE material has made me regret 
the amount of anticipation I develop.  Ahh weel, one can always hope for a 
better tommorow - I just sure the Regency Sourcebook is going to be 
great!  If it ever gets to the stores, that is.


---
Mark H Clark
mhclark@iastate.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 11:11:41 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RE: Challenge 77 
Message-ID: <199508231511.LAA16561@chopin.udel.edu>

In Reply to Your Message of Wed, 23 Aug 1995 10: 44:06 EDT
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 11:11:41 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: Well, I can't wait until I see my copy of Challenge 77.  As a fairly 
: hostile critic of Sneeks & Geeks, I'm glad to know that the folks at GDW 
: are at least taking notice of our complaints.  While I am by no means 
: hostile to everything that GDW is putting out lately (I still buy it and 
: read it, after all, and I do use most of it), I do think that it is 
: important that they respond to the market and put out material that 
: gamers are willing to buy.  When one compares Traveller output to the 
: quantity delivered by other companies, it's easy to get frustrated.  
: However, if the stuff was worth waiting for, I wouldn't mind so much.  
: The poor quality of some of the recent TNE material has made me regret 
: the amount of anticipation I develop.  Ahh weel, one can always hope for a 
: better tommorow - I just sure the Regency Sourcebook is going to be 
: great!  If it ever gets to the stores, that is.

Well, as one of the premiere GDW blasters (TM), I thought that I'd
actually take this chance to defend them.

I'm not disappointed with the GDW material per se.  Everyone can harp
about a spelling error or two, but it's not worth the worry.  I commend
GDW on the fact that they say, ``hey, we screwed up, send us a stamp,
and we'll send you some errata.''  When was the last time you saw
another game company admit that they made a mistake?  When was the last
time you saw them correct it in a fashion other than reprinting the
book?

The one argument that I here is that GDW isn't producing quality
products.  I think that's utter rubbish!  I think that they are
producing some excellent products.  Some are definitely better than
others, but that doesn't make them all bad, and that doesn't even make
the ones we don't want to see bad (case in point H & I).

Everyone seems to trash every sourcebook as being ``bad'' if it's not
the sourcebook they're looking for.

Now, I'll be the first to admit that I've been rather vocal (to put it
mildly) about some of the bonehead choices of products that GDW decides
to put out over others.

Let's looks at some of my personal favorite targets:

Personalities---The characters were in-depth, they actually felt like
real people, and I do think they add spice to a campaign.  This was a
good book.  Granted, I don't use it and I would've prefered something
else to it, but that doesn't make it bad.  The only thing that would
have made this book better was by having it present personalities from
all around the galaxy.

H & I---What were you looking for, a reprint of the old Hivers book? 
The fact is that all of the alien modules will have to be printed from
the POV of the New Era.  So, some people didn't like all the 20th
century references.  But, it still provided an excellent depth of
character generation for both races, as well as supporting technology
and weapons.

Vampire Fleets---Honestly, I only bought it for the robot design
sequence addition to FFS.  I really don't care about Virus in the
outskirts of the RC since my campaign is far away from them.  This,
like personalities is one of those sourcebooks that could have been
better only if it showed Vampire Fleets from other parts of the galaxy.

The above products aren't poorly written or produced.  The packaging is
nice.  Overall, I do feel like I'm getting my money's worth as far as
sheer workmanship and effort goes.  I think that we're all just
blasting whatever GDW puts out now as being bad because of the fact
that it's not for the type of campaign that we're (who ``we'' are, I
don't know) looking to run.

Bad products--nah.  Useless--maybe.  Better-Than-Most--definitely.

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 09:54:26 -0700
From: Christopher_Griffen@dmcwave.com (Christopher Griffen)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Lethality and variant rules...
Message-ID: <03b5d470@MailXFER.DMCWAVE.COM>

     >>Actually, you can't 'enforce' the official rules, either.  Back when 
     I was running the MegaTraveller Referees' Exchange, a lot of people 
     sent me designs using their favourite varient rules, without a note 
     stating that these were varients.  (Most of these changes made 
     weaponry more deadly.)   
     
     Some of the designs in this list have done the same thing.
     
     It's easy to see if a design follows the TL*50 rule.  If a ship breaks 
     that rule, you can always decide that in your universe that ship 
     doesn't exist.<<
     
     
     Whew!  You're telling me.  The players in my group are constantly 
     dying to obtain powerful weapons and would jump at any leniency on my 
     part regarding production of such weapons.
     
     I find myself constantly reminding them that sometimes _less_ is more. 
     Sure, you can use TL-16 gravitics rifles from Vincennes or Depot, but 
     who's going to provide parts for them?  Furthermore, who's going to 
     make repairs on a lot of this stuff?  I would expect that an engineer 
     or maintenance professional on a TL-12 world would at least experience 
     an increase of one difficulty level when attempting to work on a TL-16 
     power plant or laser turret.
     
     --Chris

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 14:08:20 -0300
From: lhowie@lrmi.com (Les Howie)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Ship Type Definitions
Message-ID: <9508231704.AA08960@ lrmi.com>

David Elrick <Dave.Elrick@ps.co.uk> wrote
>I went home last night and looked it up in volume 1 of the Admiralty Manual 
>of Seamanship 

Now that is a book I wish that I could afford, or my local library had.  

Would you do me the favour of looking up the admiralty definition of a
cruiser (and light, heavy, etc flavours)? That is another term that has
shifted its meaning all over the place in the last 50 years. 
Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
Atlantic LRMI


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Aug 95 17:06:00 PDT
From: David Elrick <Dave.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
To: "traveller%mpgn.com" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: RE: Considering selling up Classic Traveller stuff
Message-ID: <303BC330@pc136>



Traveller@hmlrly.demon.co.uk (Traveller) [Arthur] said:

> I've got a load of old Traveller stuff:
<snip>
> I'm thinking of selling up, whats it all worth?

I'm not sure, but you might have been better posting this to XBOAT. However, 
here goes:

I don't have my lists to hand, but off the top of my head the values (in UK 
money) are:

Books 1 to 3 (A5 format) - about five pounds
Starter Traveller - about four pounds
A5 supplements, adventures, JTAS etc - about six to eight pounds each (some 
come up less often and are thus slightly more valuable)
Alien Modules - between two and ten pounds depending on which one it is
Azanti High Lightning - between thirty and fifty pounds (maybe more)

I don't know the rest offhand, but I'll check. All these prices do 
presuppose that the items are in good condition and that you are selling 
them privately. A second hand dealer will give you one third or less of 
these values.

Advice: For some of the especially rare stuff, you might consider the 
European GEN CON charity auction. You stand a good chance of making a mint, 
and you're helping a charity [typically a children's charity, although I 
think this year we burned Wesley Crusher for the Heart Foundation!].

Before you ask, I am not a second hand dealer, but I do like to keep in 
touch with how the secondhand prices are running.

Good luck.

Dave Elrick


 --------------------------------------------------------------------
"Help me, Over-Done Salami. You're my only hope. Otherwise my career is 
doomed with this crummy movie."

     Out-take from Star Wars (1978)

 -------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 18:51:06 GMT
From: "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Apologies to proper scientists
Message-ID: <67@odonovan.demon.co.uk>

Firstly thanks to everyone for correcting my science in yesterday's posts.
There 
is a limit to how far a high-school kid can get with this kind of stuff.

The exploding gas giant - I sort of knew this wouldn't work, still nice
pseudo 
science though. How about a _real science_(?) scenario. Suppose the gas giant

atmosphere contained significant amounts of molecular fluorine. Under normal 
circumstances this would be extremely stable, but the sort of energy near a 
fusion exhaust could induce heterolytic fusion forming fluorine radicals.
These 
radicals would be incredibly reactive, and could induce very fast chain 
reactions like 
1/An explosion, the scale of which could be sufficiently large to almost 
subsititute for the star ignition idea.
2/Massive depletion of selected atmospheric compounds. Like terrestrial ozone

depletion, only much faster. This could cause problems for any gas giant 
ecosystem, but would have little effect to anything outside the gas giant 
atmosphere.

HEPlaR Drives - The EMP/radiation bit was a mistake (should have remembered 
those PAWs), but I will stick with my assertion that the exhaust would not be

easily visible. As an example, lets look at a Free Trader accelerating while 
travelling at 4 hexes per turn.
4 hexes per turn = 120,000,000m /30min = 66666m/s =67km/s

Fuel Expenditure
12.5m^3/ 30min = 0.00694m^3/s = 0.0005ton/s = 0.5kg/s

This fuel will be spread out along a path 67km long, and with a cross section
of 
about 5m^2 (half of the surface area of the thrusters). This gives a total 
volume of space of 335000m^3. The energy from the thruster would be spread
out 
all along this thread. It seems to me that the intensity of the emissions
from 
the exhaust would therefore be very low, and so hard to detect, compared to
more 
concentrated sources, like the engine nozzles themselves. 
As the ship travels faster, the exhaust stream will get longer, but this will

make it harder to detect not easier. The size of the target matters less to 
passive sensors than the energy output (fixed in a given expenditure of fuel)

and intensity (which decreases as the exhaust stream gets longer).

This does depend on how hot the exhaust is though, as Traveller seems to use
MWs 
of power with abandon the exhaust might be visible, but if you want to stick 
with the universe as presented by GDW, the explanation above will do.
-- 
Brendan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 09:33:59 +1100
From: Bill Currie <BILLC@teleng1.tait.co.nz>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Hoverboards
Message-ID: <2A3FE927B1@teleng1.tait.co.nz>

> Total Mass:0.043tonnes(86kg<heavy!>)

Your are out by a factor of 2, it's 1000kg to the tonne rather than
2000, so your total mass is 43kg.  Still heavy, but that's only 4
bags of potatoes. 

Bill
+--------------+-----------------------------------+
|Bill Currie   | "Watch that first step..."        |
|Christchurch  | Jump trooper motto.               |
|New Zealand   |                                   |
+--------------+-----------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 21:07:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Muir Macpherson <muirmac@uclink.berkeley.edu>
To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Fusion/HEPLAR Drives
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9508232046.A28575-0100000@uclink.berkeley.edu>

>>From: "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>  writes:
>>I suggest the following thruster as a TL9 solution for planetary landings
>>
>>TL Type             Th   MCr    MaxT    FC     FT     Airframe
>>9  HeatJet          8    0.5    -       2.00   Lhyd   Hyper
>>
>>The heat jet passes liquid hydrogen around a fusion reactor, heating it and
>>boiling it, expelling it as a gas. This is a precursor to the HEPlaR drive,
>>but
>>the hydrogen does not reach a plasma state. Although considerably 
inferior to
>>the fusion rocket which becomes available at the same time, it is a cleaner
>>alternative, and can be used within planetary atmospheres.

From: Neil Taylor <neil@owl.uk.gdscorp.comwith its own HePLAR drive and
sensors cou by using lots of reaction mass.  If you had big enough >
>this is almost how the fusion drive works anyway. I think the Trav 
version has
>the Lhyd dumped into the fusion core; but all realistic proposals (eg from
>NASA)
>have in fact used your plasma drive, fueled by the reactor heat.

This answers my question about realistic HePLAR.  I'll just pick an 
exhaust temperature I like and work out performance from there.

I said:
>> Two related notes:  How big would the reaction mass "flame"
>> behind a Heplar or fusion equipped ship be.  Since the reaction mass IIRC
>> is around 10^6 C, shouldn't it be visible from a great distanc, like
>> multiple AU?

From: Duncan Law-Green <dlg@jb.man.ac.uk>
>This is something which has bothered me about TNE for some time. Any
>ship with an operating fusion drive will create a clearly defined
>'drive plume' visible across a wide spectrum (soft X-ray to radio) and
>likely to be tens of thousands of km long. In effect: I'm here ---
>shoot me! :)
          <snip>
>Radio interferometry especially would be able to pinpoint the ship very
>nicely (fractional-arcsecond accuracy) :)
>
>I'd have to do some guesstimating, but I reckon that high-tech
>passive EMS sensors could _image_ (not just detect) a drive plume as
>far out as the orbit of Jupiter.
	
	Wow!  Thanks for the technical detail.  What this means in game
terms I think is that ships will be able to spot bogies from a long way 
off.  They might not be able to get a targeting lock, but they will know 
someone is out there, maybe even system-wide.  This might not matter much 
if most combats take place within the 100d limit of the mainworld, but it 
also means that there will be little chance of hiding elsewhere in the 
system if you ever turn on your drive.
	Hmmm...  What about stealth drives?  A ship could intentionally 
run its drive "cool" by using extra reaction mass, but this would 
probably not reduce the plume signature signifigantly until fuel 
consumption become impossibly high.  What about exotic drives useful for 
their low sig but not otherwise practical?
	The other thing this brings up is the possibillity of 
intercepting intruders with "cruise" missiles which have their own HePLAR 
drives and sensors.  Because they could take higher G's than a 
human-crewed vessel, they could intercept the target more quickly, and 
since bogies can be detected so far off they would provide a stand-off 
attack capability.  Having their own drive would also allow them to carry 
a much larger warhead.  Any ideas on the max G tolerance of missile 
components?
	Thanks again to everyone who responded to my question.

	-- Muir

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 06:14:57 GMT
From: "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: HEPlaR drive plumes
Message-ID: <68@odonovan.demon.co.uk>

Assume all that the energy from the drive went into heating the reaction
mass. 
For the free trader this gives the mass 100MJ of energy each second. These MJ

are distributed through the volume of exhaust produced in this time. This
gives 
an energy density of about 300J/m^3 (at 4hex/turn, 1G). If you want a drive 
plume 10,000 km long, then the energy of the exhaust will be given up in 150 
seconds. Very roughly, if we pretend that energy is lost at a uniform rate,
this 
gives an output of 2W/m^3. This can be visualised as a 100W lightbulb every
10m 
along the exhaust trail. This seems really dim for the ranges involved, but I

don't know how easy this would be to detect using sensors. Perhaps someone
who 
has more knowledge of real world sensor operations could finish this off. 

Also, in my apologising post I made another mistake - 'heterolytic' should be

'homolytic'.
-- 
Brendan 


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Aug 95 12:22:00 PDT
From: David Elrick <Dave.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
To: "traveller%mpgn.com" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: RE: Selling Up
Message-ID: <303CD208@pc136>



Traveller@hmlrly.demon.co.uk (Traveller) [Arthur] said:

> I've got a load of old Traveller stuff:
<snip>
> I'm thinking of selling up, whats it all worth?

I've now checked and the values I gave in my earlier post a broadly correct 
for the UK market as it currently stands. Some of the other stuff you 
mentioned doesn't come up very often (specifically Invasion Earth and the 
Traveller hardback book - although I've seen plenty of the softback copy) so 
any values I can quote you for those items are very much guesswork.

If you want to email me directly (on Dave.Elrick@ps.co.uk) with a list of 
items I'll be happy to discuss with you their value and the best course of 
action.

Alternatively, you can take them to a second-hand dealer and see what you 
can get for them (typically a _maximum_ of a third of the prices I quoted in 
my earlier post), but most of the dealers I know were heavily hit by the 
Magic: The Gathering tsunami and are struggling to keep going.

Another possibility is advertising in the small ads in Valkyrie or 
Challenge. Again, I'll be happy to help you out with possible prices.

Good luck.

Dave Elrick

 --------------------------------------------------------------------
Among the great tales of heroic deeds, hrurastea, sorrow and ruin
that have come down to us from the darkness of the Ftahea there are
still some in which, amid weeping there is joy, and in the shade of
rukht there is honour. Among these histories most welcome in the Aslan
mind is the story of Hwaihweikteh and Oa'asei. Of their lives was
made the Weaeikh of Hfeiwa, which is the longest, save two alone,
of the songs concerning the Hierate of old.
 -------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 15:16:19 +0200 (EET)
From: Joni M Virolainen <jonimv@evitech.fi>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: rof.txt
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9508241525.A27172-0100000@evitech.evitech.fi>





As everyone who has fired using full automatic fire have noticed, that is
really noneconomical firing method. So the automatic fire rules of TNE works
quite well, but how to handle short controlled bursts? It is relevant to
know, because about 3-round bursts are most effective way to shoot (at least
in assaults with very little time to aim).

I have thought that you can fire 2 short bursts (3 or 5 round burst debending
on weapons ROF). At short range you get a bonus of +3/+5 to your to-hit 
asset. If you hit, then roll the dice to see how many of the bullets finally
hit the target. Beyond short range increase difficulty level by one for
to-hit. Those bonuses aply only to those, who can handle the recoil of 
burst(s). 

What do you think of this? Any comments or ideas are welcome.

Joni Virolainen
jonimv@evitech.fi






------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 15:18:31 +0200 (EET)
From: Joni M Virolainen <jonimv@evitech.fi>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: M41A
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9508241539.A27172-0100000@evitech.evitech.fi>



Liam McCauley, 

I liked your conversion of M41A Pulse Rifle. Gasp! But the range was terribly
short compared to ACRs. But in close quarters that doesn't matter,
escpecially 
with bulk of 3.

I have allways thought that pulse rifle was supposed to be some kind of gauss
rifle, oh well so human mind makes mistakes. Does your source material
describe
why it is called 'pulse rifle'?

Just out of curiosity. How close was the effectiveness compared to Aliens
stats?

What kind of ammunition that canister round was supposed to be? A chemical 
warhead?


Joni Virolainen
jonimv@evitech.fi



------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 388
***************************


----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
From traveller@mpgn.com  Thu Aug 24 09:45:09 1995
Return-Path: traveller@mpgn.com
Received: from Ambassador.MPGN.COM (Ambassador.MPGN.COM [149.109.1.5]) by
emin06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA05597; Thu, 24 Aug 1995
09:45:03 -0400
Received: from  (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Ambassador.MPGN.COM (8.6.9/8.6.9)
with SMTP id JAA01663; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 09:39:24 -0400
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 09:39:24 -0400
Message-Id: <199508241339.JAA01663@Ambassador.MPGN.COM>
Errors-To: traveller-request@mpgn.com
Reply-To: traveller@mpgn.com
Originator: traveller@mpgn.com
Sender: traveller@mpgn.com
Precedence: bulk
From: traveller@mpgn.com
To: Multiple recipients of list <traveller@mpgn.com>
Subject: TRAVELLER digest 388
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Traveller Mailing List

